God, the thread

[ReodDai]

If you want to get the plain truth
Be not concerned with right and wrong.
The conflict between right and wrong
Is the sickness of the mind.

-Seng-ts'an, sixth century Zen Master

Obligated charity is no longer charity. Even an evil man can treat his family decent.

[wannabe]

Now you're arguing that morality does not exist. We're back again to my arguement that this statement is inherently selfish. If we deny that actions can be right or wrong, we have no reason NOT to kill someone if it benefits us. Also, to make this argument at this point, after arguing that you know right from wrong, is to admit that your mind is sick.

An evil man CAN treat his family well, but what are the odds that he will? Even if he does, again, there are many moral dilemmas that cannot be solved by looking at secular law. The giving of charity is not an obligation, but rather something we SHOULD do. It's not an imperative, and therefore, it's not IMMORAL to not give charity, but it IS moral to give charity.

[ReodDai]

Missed the idea behind that quote apparently. Right and wrong exist beyond religion, if those are your only arguements for religion your missing any simblence of truth. The sickness of the mind is the constant worrying of right and wrong. Your no longer looking for truth your looking for justification.

[nikon]

oh boy, look what I started ..... [img]graemlins/slap.gif[/img] -----> me

however there is some good debate material coming out of you guys.....god really is an interesting topic to discuss....oh ya and I too think we could be an atom of some sort of something else, that lived on another earth.....its really mind boggling....thats why I said in my previous post that started this, that you only go down the shoot once...dont waste your time thinking about things that arent certain....I really didnt mean for this to get this big....at least its calm and not out of hand.... ;)

[3.4 [deployed]]

edited to go start another, hopefully flame free like this, thread

[ReodDai]

shrug this is a healthy discussion. We aren't flaming nor am I denouncing his beliefs or he mine.

Special thanks to 3.4 [img]graemlins/rock.gif[/img]

[ July 06, 2004, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: ReodDai ]

[4thgenowner]

[img]graemlins/popcorn.gif[/img]

[wannabe]

Originally posted by ReodDai:
Missed the idea behind that quote apparently. Right and wrong exist beyond religion, if those are your only arguements for religion your missing any simblence of truth. The sickness of the mind is the constant worrying of right and wrong. Your no longer looking for truth your looking for justification.

Ok, I get the point now, and it's a valid one. Right and wrong are not the only reasons to believe in a religion, however, they are the most compelling argument against atheism and moral relativism. Judaism has at its core a search for truth. We are taught from a young age to question the religion, and end up with stronger faith for it. Through our religion, through the carrying out of our commandments and the living of our traditions, we engage in a search for truth that almost without fail leads us to G-d. I can't speak for Christians or Buddhists or Muslims, but Judaism encourages a search for truth beyond just acting right or wrong, but to search for a deeper meaning in our lives.

[ReodDai]

Good way of thinking Nikon. I enjoy discussing this topic because however its rare for religious people to be able to discuss this civilly (its also rare for non religious people to do the same lol)

[ReodDai]

Good point wannabe. However when discussing Aethism you have to tie in secular humanism as well. Very important that you do this. Its more of a shift in beliefs from spiritual to moral.

I have a question tho. Why is the christian religion so utterly divided? Even the protestant side as an incredible number of sects all divided by small and petty differences in translation or understanding of their texts.

[wannabe]

To be honest, I'm not completely familiar with secular humanism, but my understanding is that it relies heavily on moral and cultural relativism, which I stated earlier is morally bankrupt. My question is still where does this moral code of secular humanism come from? By what measure can it be determined that one is acting morally? What reason does one have to follow it?

If my understanding of secular humanism is wrong, please correct me.

I've wondered the same thing about Christianity, myself.

[3.4 [deployed]]

They just think their way is the "right, correct" way to worship. Look at the main difference between Christians & Jews, and we still worship the same G-d ( ;) ).

As far as some of the bigger break-a-ways from standard Christianism/Catholism, well your History of Western Civislization class(es) should've answered that for you.

[ReodDai]

Basically put it this way. Before religion people still lived by what they considered right. Even with religion people still live by what they consider right the only difference is religion as become a part of the culture. Therefore; religion is cultural relativism ;) You may not want to belive it ... but it is. If you denounced the jewish religion today would you really change as a person? You may not worship anymore but what else about you would change? Nothing. You would still be the exact same person your culture told you to be. Even the religious part of your culture would have a say =)


Main Entry: cultural relativism
Function: noun
Definition: the concept that the importance of a particular cultural idea varies from one society or societal subgroup to another, the view that ethical and moral standards are relative to what a particular society or culture believes to be good/bad, right/wrong


cul·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klchr)
n.

The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.

[wannabe]

Originally posted by 3.4 [deployed]:
They just think their way is the "right, correct" way to worship. Look at the main difference between Christians & Jews, and we still worship the same G-d ( ;) ).

As far as some of the bigger break-a-ways from standard Christianism/Catholism, well your History of Western Civislization class(es) should've answered that for you.

The difference between Christians and Jews is significantly larger than that between various sects of Christianity.

[ReodDai]

Originally posted by 3.4 [deployed]:
They just think their way is the "right, correct" way to worship. Look at the main difference between Christians & Jews, and we still worship the same G-d ( ;) ).

As far as some of the bigger break-a-ways from standard Christianism/Catholism, well your History of Western Civislization class(es) should've answered that for you.

Thank you for displaying the selfishness of religion.