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Which is why I said "MOST" - Y87 cars make up for about 20% of the V6 crowd at best. I'm aware of the 3.42 rear axel / live diff the Y87's have and stated that most are open end for that reason, but I am not speaking of the "abuse" it can handle. I am stating that, an average V6 is going to have to upgrade the rear if he wants to put down anything north of 300 HP - The open end will bottle neck the system. The 10 Bolt is certainly capable of reliably handling up to 400 HP as long as you dont launch with an M6 and Sticky Tires. But the open end will not permit for great passes, hence why it would need to be upgraded sooner.
They are not reliable up to 400hp at all. stock v8's wreck these things all the time...I've turned a brand new zexel torsen into powder, I completely demolished an "indestructable, rebuildable" eaton posi unit that supposedly have forged parts throughout in just over 1 year. I see the track maybe 4-5 times a year if that. The only thing salvagable from the Eaton unit was the springs...and yes, those rears were setup perfectly.
So really, if you want to go fast in either car, you're going to need to upgrade the rear end regardless unless you want a ticking time bomb.
IIRC - The V8's do not suffer from the weak 3-4 shift servo. The gearing is the same but I do believe the V8 trans are sturdier about handling power.
Yes they do, go on ls1tech...I did a ton of research on the 60e when I put my shift kit in just over a month ago.
I've managed to snap one on my 97 RS which was mostly stock asside from a CAI.
Regardless this is about a 70-80$ mod...it's not breaking the bank.
If you can't use the V6 hardware on a V8...it is entirely different. Nothing from our V6 drivetrain asside from the Y87 Rearends will work on a V8.
Elaborate? You can swap every single part interchangeably with the exception of the tranny and that is only because the shafts are a different size... and that's because they need to bolt up to a different motor. Innards of the trans are the same, you'd buy the identical parts for a rebuild/beef up.
On a N/A car, you're not getting much more than 100 HP ...150 at the very most unless you use N20...but on demand power, it's not happening.
Perceivable numbers? because there are guys running high stalls that will never "see" those numbers, but you can be damn sure their cars pull the 1/4 mile numbers to support more than 100 hp.
Most notable to this that I can think of right now is LNorton who pulled a 12.3 literally cam only...
Which is what I was saying, you assumed that "any motor tuned right would perform as well as a 3.8" and I beg to differ that our 3.8's can handle more boost in stock form than an average stock motor.
The LT1 / LS1 have too high of a CR to handle too much boost stock so they have to go forged internals almost instantly, no amount of tuning can compensate for that.
Where is this "average" motor coming from? Who determines an average motor? The only time you can use the word average when referring to a motor is when referring to a particular model. i.e the average GM 3800 compared to another GM 3800 or the average LS1 compared to other LS1's. You cannot compare different motors and make up some kinda average that doesnt exist.
Every motor in how it is built is different. Everything from stroke, to displacement, to bearing clearances, quench, etc etc etc etc etc is going to determine what you can and can't do.
They are not reliable up to 400hp at all. stock v8's wreck these things all the time...I've turned a brand new zexel torsen into powder, I completely demolished an "indestructable, rebuildable" eaton posi unit that supposedly have forged parts throughout in just over 1 year. I see the track maybe 4-5 times a year if that. The only thing salvagable from the Eaton unit was the springs...and yes, those rears were setup perfectly.
So really, if you want to go fast in either car, you're going to need to upgrade the rear end regardless unless you want a ticking time bomb.
While this is true, (although 10 bolts are typically fine unless you launch hard with sticky tires and a manual transmission) the reason the V6 reaches their threshold faster isn't because the rear is any less durable, it's because its an open end differential, you won't get traction north of 300 HP and that will inhibit making any good times, it's not that the rear wont hold up its that the rear wont deliver power efficiently enough to make good times.
Yes they do, go on ls1tech...I did a ton of research on the 60e when I put my shift kit in just over a month ago.
This you are probably right on, however; I have heard that there are numerous differences within the transmissions that make it infeasible to just swap the bellhousing, pump stator, and input shafts where as it's best to just buy a whole new transmission.
Elaborate? You can swap every single part interchangeably with the exception of the tranny and that is only because the shafts are a different size... and that's because they need to bolt up to a different motor. Innards of the trans are the same, you'd buy the identical parts for a rebuild/beef up.
Pump stator is different too on the trans but what I am saying is, you cannot use an open end diff on the V8. Also the V6 rears got 7.5" rings vs 8.5" rings the V8's got which are a bit weaker. We're probably not talking a grand amount here but there is a difference. You definitely don't want to use a two piece drive shaft on a V8. The open end will not correctly wire to the PCM and you will trigger MIL's and lose traction control. And the traction itself will be horrible. The setup for the V8's drivetrain is different enough than the V6 to be incomparable aside from sharing the same bolt locations. The Rear Axle bolts the same and the 10 bolt sustains the same amount of power but its functionality between the V6 and V8 is entirely different. You will not be able to put down the same amount of power - not because it will break sooner, but because its configuration isn't as efficient for the V6. An open end will have problems transferring large amounts of power making for harder 1/4th mile times. It will not BREAK any sooner its just it will not be as easy to take down the track
When most people do V8 swaps, they have to change the rear unless they have a Y87 car to a minimum of a Z28 rear (between a LS1 F-Car rear or a 12 Bolt). The reason is once again, they're not the same.
Perceivable numbers? because there are guys running high stalls that will never "see" those numbers, but you can be damn sure their cars pull the 1/4 mile numbers to support more than 100 hp.
Most notable to this that I can think of right now is LNorton who pulled a 12.3 literally cam only...
There's a reason people like that are so popular, it's because it rarely happens all motor in a 3.8 car. Its not that it CAN'T happen or that its a waste of time or money, it's very admirable don't take me wrong... but it won't be cheap or easy which brings me back to the point that for the time and investment involved, its always going to be much more feasible to bring a GN into the 12's and 11's because the market for the hardware for it available to do it easier than it is to do it with our cars plus the hardware to attain those times is pretty much stock in a GN.
Where is this "average" motor coming from? Who determines an average motor? The only time you can use the word average when referring to a motor is when referring to a particular model. i.e the average GM 3800 compared to another GM 3800 or the average LS1 compared to other LS1's. You cannot compare different motors and make up some kinda average that doesnt exist.
Every motor in how it is built is different. Everything from stroke, to displacement, to bearing clearances, quench, etc etc etc etc etc is going to determine what you can and can't do.
I hate to admit that you are the one who brought this up...I was only inferring to a point that you recently made...
you realize this applies to every motor ever built right? Throw parts in a a 500,000 motor and don't tune it right and tell me it won't hold up...
Which kind of in itself debunks your own statement but I'll go ahead and say it anyway.
For a stock motor, the 3.8L can handle a relatively large amount of boost compared to many motors out there. It's apparent that motors are configured differently, but a STOCK engine holding the boost that the 3.8 can handle is pretty noteworthy.
One-piece driveshafts are all installed on the later model 4th gen V6's. I am one of those that had a car come from the factory with a 3.42 and posi rear end and it is not a sport package or Y87 car.
Usd2sing ran into the 12's on a built motor car with nitrous on a 10bolt and 3800 stall. He didn't destroy the rear end, but he broke many an axle on drag radials. Autos are a bit easier on the rear than a manual, less shock to the drivetrain. He was not running an open diff of course.
Most of the guys that were really pushing the limits got out of the game a few years ago after they finished school and got better toys. Floydsummerof68 and Linxs are two of the bigger ones on other boards that got out of the game.
There's still some serious guys in the game though. Lee Norton is probably coming closer I believe to 11's with what is essentially a cam only car. But that's a stock eliminator chassis car. Musicman has a nice turbo setup that came off Linxs car (think 600whp+ capability). It's not just on this forum, you gotta diversify.
As for me, I'm still slowly working my way to a serious turbo build, but I'm dealing with school and life in general. Once school is done, it'll be time to play. I have it pretty well planned out on what I want to do, but time, tools and finances are all things that have to come into play.
I try to get things done in little stages that help build up the platform just a little bit at a time and get it ready for the serious stuff.
I posted a vid not to long ago on a 229 V6 chevy producing 510hp NA!!!!
This was installed on a 78 Camaro and that car did a low 10 sec. On the track.
Back then I used to think that only Harry Dolittle did 11 sec. on his NA 98 Firebird, but I'm starting to see that there were a couple more that did 11 sec. NA with the 3800 s. II.
Yeah, we do have an engine that's more than capable, but not enough interest. I don't think aftermarket is the problem, because Dolittle and the others did it on their own.
People here would rather invest their money on a V8 than continue modding their V6. The days of Magnus, 12sec.V6, Shirl, Iron Man 24 are over now.
I'm sure if Fbodies only came in V6 we would be up there with the big boys.
People would rather the easy way out, than use a little bit of their brains to go fast.
Who else went 11's NA? Do you have links? I like to read up about the setups. I'd love to know what was done to doolittles car.
And you're right, the problem is not the aftermarket. There isn't a lot of people who really mod these cars, and the majority that do want more of a mild setup than anything.
People would rather the easy way out, than use a little bit of their brains to go fast.
And you're right, the problem is not the aftermarket. There isn't a lot of people who really mod these cars, and the majority that do want more of a mild setup than anything.
And what's funny is I get more compliments on the work I've done on my car on V8 boards than "OMG WHY DID YOU DO THIS ON A SLOW V6?!" type of posts.
I get people swearing at me when I tell them I just have a 6 when I've been asked...most people don't believe me until I pop the hood, they think I'm trying to hide something...I get a kick out of it actually.
Lee has had the same thing happen to him with his stock eliminator car. Beat the pants off V8's and turbo imports on a cam only car, owners come up to ask what is done to it and then they find out it is a V6. It's funny how many people start accusing him of using nitrous (in a class that power adders like that are not allowed). Talk about some people getting their panties all twisted!
us with the built cars are still around :) Just lurk from time to time to check on things. Only can repeat yourself so many times before you just give up and lurk instead of try to answer everything over and over. lol.
us with the built cars are still around :) Just lurk from time to time to check on things. Only can repeat yourself so many times before you just give up and lurk instead of try to answer everything over and over. lol.
You're not allowed to lurk until you run you're damn car on that build and update us with some times....I need an idea of what your custom cam is going to run on my setup...lol
You're not allowed to lurk until you run you're damn car on that build and update us with some times....I need an idea of what your custom cam is going to run on my setup...lol
my cam is the abbott cam and I have run it. single stage of nitrous so far, second stage is after the wedding this summer as I am using it for the getaway car and can't have it broken. :) The other cam was bigger ;) Also have some better wheel studs to change out as the stockers make me nervous with the DRs.
my cam is the abbott cam and I have run it. single stage of nitrous so far, second stage is after the wedding this summer as I am using it for the getaway car and can't have it broken. :) The other cam was bigger ;) Also have some better wheel studs to change out as the stockers make me nervous with the DRs.
ok, so what'd you run N/A???...;) and I know my cam is bigger...ARH on steroids, remember lol...thats why I want a ballpark figure from you....I think you are one of the closest people to my build...I still need to get my australian parts on!
You forget my monster build with the VS cam and 1.7 rockers .lol I wish I had went bigger knowing I have another vehicle. I might run it on the dyno with 100 shot this summer.
08' L76 6.0L 4X4 Chevy EXT.Cab LTZ Vortec MAX with Snug top cover, Dynomax exhaust,Hptuners& K&N intake
96' Camaro M5 to A4 conversion, alot of mods . GT35R Turbo full suspension. Built engine
You forget my monster build with the VS cam and 1.7 rockers .lol I wish I had went bigger knowing I have another vehicle. I might run it on the dyno with 100 shot this summer.
Steve...only cool people are N/A ;)...sorry, your build doesn't count....
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