Serious 3800 builds

[Gutless]

I spend a lot of time on the Grand National boards as I have a carbed turbo car and a lot of the tech overlaps. It seems like there is hundreds of 86/87 Ttypes and GN's in the 11's and faster but not hardly any 4th gen V6's in the 10's or even 11's. I understand NA 11's are almost impossible but what about boosted? I know ZZP has that firebird with a 3800 that ran 8's but around here there just isnt any seriously fast 3800 cars. I see a lot of M90 GP's in the 12's and 13's but none in the 11's, mostly because the blower is too small.

Why is there just what seems like no 11 or 10 second 3800 4th gens? The GN guys ohh and ahh about how tough the series II blocks are but for every 1 fast 3800 theres 100 GN's? Wheres all the 11 second turbed camaros?

[vanbibber]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

because most v6 fbody owners at this point are young *** kids with no money or college students that want a nice looking car without going v8. the rest.... just decided v8 was easier. Turbo buicks are in a class of their own, they were pretty badass out of the gate, so the popularity for modders and racers is built in and the aftermarket is there for them. v6 fbody people have to spend **** loads more because the aftermarket is small and always has been and its smaller now given the decade thats passes and new tech thats come along.

very few are dedicated enough to go thru with it. the ones who have and still own their cars barely drive them. others just lose interest in the hobby or grow up and dont have time for it like they used it

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

hey, we just drive less because we're too busy breaking ****...

You have to realize that there are fast guys out there that just arent on the boards...Ive seen a few v6 fbodies around here for sale in the past little while that had the cartuning turbo kit, and another that was super charged, and another that had an m90 supercharge conversion.

I never got a chance to meet/see any of them, but it did surprise me.

[Gutless]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

I thought it would be a cool conversation.

I saw a thread on turbobuick where a guy took an L32 and put some mildly ported heads and cam on with some RWD L36 parts and ran mid 11's on a test pass. Just saying that a series II is so much tougher than a 109 block 3.8 its rediculous. My stock l67 bird with exhaust is way faster than my carb turbo that has ported heads, cam, bottom end work, carb work and all sorta stuff.

It also helps that 86/87 cars ran 13's off the showroom and a fuel pump, exhaust work, alky, tires and air filter takes them into the 12's.

Maybe its just that fabrication is so easy for me but if I wanted to go fast I would turboed my firebird instead of doing the M90 conversion. I wanted it cheap though which I acheived.

[alex553]

Re: Serious 3800 builds





Twincharge ftw

Jk but seriously some of us v6 owners are young like myself I'm 19 .____. I only mod my car to compete against my friends for "fun"

[Need4Camaro]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

The reason is this...

GN's have a lot of supporting aftermarket and honestly it doesn't take much to make a GN fast. Better inter cooler and larger turbo - like $2,000 and instantly 200 more HP plus infinite other possibilities. Also you don't have to go all out in custom fabrication to make a GN fast because the parts and system is already there for it.

The V6 F-Bodies on the other hand cost ALOT more to make fast because these cars were not built to sustain large amounts of power, the drive train is weak and it was made that way because we have a V8 counter-part so there was no reason to build an all out race car out of our V6's. Most of our aftermarket is dedicated to the V8 crowd.

To truly make a 3800 4th gen FAST it's going to take ALOT of money unless you know what you're doing and can do alot of custom work yourself.

Basically the reason there's not many of us in the 11's is because there's no convinient means to put us there. It can only be done through sheer dedication and by the time you get there you would have spent twice as much or more than you would to just V8 swap or buy a V8 car which can get there with a simple heads and cam swap.

Also for the N/A mods, there's just not enough bang for the buck. The car would have to be maxxed out just to reach 13's...MAYBE 12's is possible with the right suspension setup but it would not be very streetable.

Finally we're comparing apples and oranges...The only the similar between our cars and the GN is the displacement...thats it...The engine blocks are entirely different, the internals and heads are different, our motors were not designed from the factory to withstand that kind of power...It just so happens that they CAN if tuned right, but it wasn't the main intention...

[flamingchicken]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

Twincharge ftw

Jk but seriously some of us v6 owners are young like myself I'm 19 .____. I only mod my car to compete against my friends for "fun"

Aint that some stuff. I posted a link to your craigslist ad in the lounge the other day.

[alex553]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

Yeah I saw the posting, now I'm planning on buying another f body and throwing that in there

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

The reason is this...

GN's have a lot of supporting aftermarket and honestly it doesn't take much to make a GN fast. Better inter cooler and larger turbo - like $2,000 and instantly 200 more HP plus infinite other possibilities. Also you don't have to go all out in custom fabrication to make a GN fast because the parts and system is already there for it.

The V6 F-Bodies on the other hand cost ALOT more to make fast because these cars were not built to sustain large amounts of power, the drive train is weak and it was made that way because we have a V8 counter-part so there was no reason to build an all out race car out of our V6's. Most of our aftermarket is dedicated to the V8 crowd.

To truly make a 3800 4th gen FAST it's going to take ALOT of money unless you know what you're doing and can do alot of custom work yourself.

Basically the reason there's not many of us in the 11's is because there's no convinient means to put us there. It can only be done through sheer dedication and by the time you get there you would have spent twice as much or more than you would to just V8 swap or buy a V8 car which can get there with a simple heads and cam swap.

Also for the N/A mods, there's just not enough bang for the buck. The car would have to be maxxed out just to reach 13's...MAYBE 12's is possible with the right suspension setup but it would not be very streetable.

Finally we're comparing apples and oranges...The only the similar between our cars and the GN is the displacement...thats it...The engine blocks are entirely different, the internals and heads are different, our motors were not designed from the factory to withstand that kind of power...It just so happens that they CAN if tuned right, but it wasn't the main intention...

There is a lot of bad info here.


First off

The V6 F-Bodies on the other hand cost ALOT more to make fast because these cars were not built to sustain large amounts of power, the drive train is weak and it was made that way because we have a V8 counter-part so there was no reason to build an all out race car out of our V6's. Most of our aftermarket is dedicated to the V8 crowd.

V6 and V8 F bodies have the same drivetrain...it sucks, they have the same ****ty 10 bolt as us. Some v6's were optioned with the same posi units, while others got open diffs. Open diffs isn't exactly a weak point, it just sucks for traction...regardless the 10 bolt is weak and needs to be replaced in either v8 or v6 cars if you want to do anything.

To truly make a 3800 4th gen FAST it's going to take ALOT of money unless you know what you're doing and can do alot of custom work yourself.

Not true, 5000$ will get you a turbo kit/tune that will put you into low 11's with 400rwhp.

YOU can probably do that for less if you have the know how, but I for the guy that doesn't know how 5,000$. I can gurantee you 5000$ is less money than it would take you to get a good v8 in good condition, and then put the heads/cam on it that would allow it into the low 11's. You won't do it for $5,000 unless you gut the entire car and turn it to a strict race car like bird-of-prey.

Also for the N/A mods, there's just not enough bang for the buck. The car would have to be maxxed out just to reach 13's...MAYBE 12's is possible with the right suspension setup but it would not be very streetable

I disagree, just because most people choose to go with an off the shelf milder cam and run high 13's and 14's does not mean you have to be maxed out at all. Thats a personal choice for people.

Bang for your dollar? Custom cam costs the same as an off the shelf cam...use a little knowledge and get a custom cam...or, talk to the guys making these cam's and tell them what YOU want to do with the car, and they'll design YOU one around you're goals/parts. <<which is the most effective way to build a fast car.

Remember, the fastest cars out there are not running "off the shelf" stuff.

It just so happens that they CAN if tuned right, but it wasn't the main intention...

you realize this applies to every motor ever built right? Throw parts in a a 500,000 motor and don't tune it right and tell me it won't hold up...

[Gutless]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

V6 f bodies are dirt cheap. I picked mine up in pretty poor shape for $1300. Granted it needed alot but I see $2500 3800 F bodies all the time. Most LS1 cars are over $7500. Thats $5000 of upgrades. I figgure I have $1000 in my complete L67 swap. Around 240HP and 280ft lbs. A $500 cam, $100 pulley, $300 headers, $300 cat back, and $500 fuel system with E85 means you have a solid low 12 second V6 f body for under $5500. Thats about 3/4 the cost of a low 12 second GN and 3/4 the cost of a stock LS1 car. Its not like there isnt any potential, just nobody tries it. A solid low 12 second ls1 car is upwards of $10000.

The GN aftermarket is good but its nothing compared to the LS1 aftermarket. Not like GN stuff is any cheaper than 3800 stuff either.

What Im getting at is there is a lot of ported headed cammed modded GN's that run a stock block in the 9's but nobody in the 3800 crowd seems to want to take a series II 3800 to that level.

[Need4Camaro]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

There is a lot of bad info here.


First off

V6 and V8 F bodies have the same drivetrain...it sucks, they have the same ****ty 10 bolt as us. Some v6's were optioned with the same posi units, while others got open diffs. Open diffs isn't exactly a weak point, it just sucks for traction...regardless the 10 bolt is weak and needs to be replaced in either v8 or v6 cars if you want to do anything.

The rear axel is the ONLY thing that's similar between the V6 and V8 F-Body as far as drivetrain goes and not all of them are the same, MOST V6's have Open Ends. V8 F-Bodies with Posi's who don't launch with an M6 can make a 10 bolt last, although they usually have to upgrade aswell.

The transmission is something you're forgetting too though, they're not the same between the V6 and V8, not even the A4 is the same, the LS1 A4 can handle more HP than the V6 A4 can.

Drive shafts are USUALLY different too as most V6's got put off with two pieces...

The drive train between the two cars IS entirely different... if it wasn't then doing a V8 swap wouldn't be so hard.

Not true, 5000$ will get you a turbo kit/tune that will put you into low 11's with 400rwhp.

YOU can probably do that for less if you have the know how, but I for the guy that doesn't know how 5,000$. I can gurantee you 5000$ is less money than it would take you to get a good v8 in good condition, and then put the heads/cam on it that would allow it into the low 11's. You won't do it for $5,000 unless you gut the entire car and turn it to a strict race car like bird-of-prey.

I'm not trying to sound rash or argue or anything so dont get me wrong, but we're comparing the price to upgrading a GN vs a F-Body, not a V8...although I could argue that point too a little bit, personally my motor swap would cost about $3k without labor, If I got a head / cam setup I could PROBABLY hit the very high 11's - this is presuming I knew how to do all of it myself... that would cost slightly over $5k - so no it's not impossible... my trans and rear end won't like it, but that also goes for the V6 as well.. in the end it will cost either car alot more than $5k to break and SUSTAIN 11's... (sustain meaning being able to do so without breaking things in the trans and drive train)

Back on point though though you can get into the 11's with a GN for much less than 5 Grand - probably alittle over half of that amount as the aftermarket for it is plentiful. Also another thing, even after you spend 5 grand, you're still on stock internals, now I know the 3.8 is a tough motor dont get me wrong but you are asking for trouble running consistent 11's without forged internals, that's easily another 2 grand added to your cost and dont get started with valve train upgrades to sustain that kind of power... where as most of that hardware came stock on GN's.

I disagree, just because most people choose to go with an off the shelf milder cam and run high 13's and 14's does not mean you have to be maxed out at all. Thats a personal choice for people.

Bang for your dollar? Custom cam costs the same as an off the shelf cam...use a little knowledge and get a custom cam...or, talk to the guys making these cam's and tell them what YOU want to do with the car, and they'll design YOU one around you're goals/parts. <<which is the most effective way to build a fast car.

Remember, the fastest cars out there are not running "off the shelf" stuff.

And in the end, you're still going to have to run a radical cam to make that kind of power, we only make 200 HP stock, it's going to push a car to its limits breaking an extra 100 HP with just a cam and heads... even LS1's can't make an extra 100 HP with a cam alone...custom or not. There's other ways to make 13's and 12's, it's just you will have to do more than a cam to make it.

you realize this applies to every motor ever built right? Throw parts in a a 500,000 motor and don't tune it right and tell me it won't hold up...

Really? Why can a LT1 / LS1 safely only run 8 PSI of Boost while our motors can sustain upward 12 PSI? Also what about STR4's who can see 20 PSI and higher?...

Our motors have the ability to handle more boost than the average stock engine is what I am saying. We have a very strong bottom end for a stock engine but put the same amount of boost on an LS1 and you will eventually blow it up, I dont care how good you tune it, it's beyond its limits because the LS1 has a higher compression ratio.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

The rear axel is the ONLY thing that's similar between the V6 and V8 F-Body as far as drivetrain goes and not all of them are the same, MOST V6's have Open Ends. V8 F-Bodies with Posi's who don't launch with an M6 can make a 10 bolt last, although they usually have to upgrade aswell.

Wrong. y87 F-bodies have an identical rear end to the v8's. Actually we're geared better with 3.42's in those cars. If you really want to get technical here, no one ever hears of the open dif rears breaking...it's all the posi units rear ends. v8 or v6 got either the torsen or auburn difs when equiped with a posi, and they are both too small and are frequently trashed even by stock cars.

A rear end from a v8 will not in any way shape or form hold up to more abuse than ANY of the rear ends that came in ANY of the F-bodies.

The transmission is something you're forgetting too though, they're not the same between the V6 and V8, not even the A4 is the same, the LS1 A4 can handle more HP than the V6 A4 can.

t5 vs t56 yes, this is true...as for the A4's no...the only thing different on them is input/output shafts and the bell housing. They cannot sustain any more power than what ours can. (Maybe the shafts are stronger being bigger, but these are not weak points)

Drive shafts are USUALLY different too as most V6's got put off with two pieces...

Ok, this is a great upgrade, but not really a weak point. Just a crappy design that robs horsepower.

The drive train between the two cars IS entirely different... if it wasn't then doing a V8 swap wouldn't be so hard.

No, it's not. There is subtle differences, nothing crazy. Certainly nothing that allows any v8 to hold up to more power and "sustain" it any more than a v6 could at the same power levels.

I'm not trying to sound rash or argue or anything so dont get me wrong, but we're comparing the price to upgrading a GN vs a F-Body, not a V8...although I could argue that point too a little bit, personally my motor swap would cost about $3k without labor, If I got a head / cam setup I could PROBABLY hit the very high 11's - this is presuming I knew how to do all of it myself... that would cost slightly over $5k - so no it's not impossible... my trans and rear end won't like it, but that also goes for the V6 as well.. in the end it will cost either car alot more than $5k to break and SUSTAIN 11's... (sustain meaning being able to do so without breaking things in the trans and drive train)

Back on point though though you can get into the 11's with a GN for much less than 5 Grand - probably alittle over half of that amount as the aftermarket for it is plentiful. Also another thing, even after you spend 5 grand, you're still on stock internals, now I know the 3.8 is a tough motor dont get me wrong but you are asking for trouble running consistent 11's without forged internals, that's easily another 2 grand added to your cost and dont get started with valve train upgrades to sustain that kind of power... where as most of that hardware came stock on GN's.



And in the end, you're still going to have to run a radical cam to make that kind of power, we only make 200 HP stock, it's going to push a car to its limits breaking an extra 100 HP with just a cam and heads... even LS1's can't make an extra 100 HP with a cam alone...custom or not. There's other ways to make 13's and 12's, it's just you will have to do more than a cam to make it.

100 hp is really nothing and certainly not pushing limits. It's people cutting corners that cause issues.

Really? Why can a LT1 / LS1 safely only run 8 PSI of Boost while our motors can sustain upward 12 PSI? Also what about STR4's who can see 20 PSI and higher?...

Our motors have the ability to handle more boost than the average stock engine is what I am saying. We have a very strong bottom end for a stock engine but put the same amount of boost on an LS1 and you will eventually blow it up, I dont care how good you tune it, it's beyond its limits because the LS1 has a higher compression ratio.

you're comparing iron and aluminum blocks here. You're also comparing motors that have a big difference in compression numbers...Im not sure what your getting at here.

[thebeewantsboost]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

i wanna go fast:)

[Need4Camaro]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

Wrong. y87 F-bodies have an identical rear end to the v8's. Actually we're geared better with 3.42's in those cars. If you really want to get technical here, no one ever hears of the open dif rears breaking...it's all the posi units rear ends. v8 or v6 got either the torsen or auburn difs when equiped with a posi, and they are both too small and are frequently trashed even by stock cars.

A rear end from a v8 will not in any way shape or form hold up to more abuse than ANY of the rear ends that came in ANY of the F-bodies.

Which is why I said "MOST" - Y87 cars make up for about 20% of the V6 crowd at best. I'm aware of the 3.42 rear axel / live diff the Y87's have and stated that most are open end for that reason, but I am not speaking of the "abuse" it can handle. I am stating that, an average V6 is going to have to upgrade the rear if he wants to put down anything north of 300 HP - The open end will bottle neck the system. The 10 Bolt is certainly capable of reliably handling up to 400 HP as long as you dont launch with an M6 and Sticky Tires. But the open end will not permit for great passes, hence why it would need to be upgraded sooner.

t5 vs t56 yes, this is true...as for the A4's no...the only thing different on them is input/output shafts and the bell housing. They cannot sustain any more power than what ours can. (Maybe the shafts are stronger being bigger, but these are not weak points)

IIRC - The V8's do not suffer from the weak 3-4 shift servo. The gearing is the same but I do believe the V8 trans are sturdier about handling power.

Ok, this is a great upgrade, but not really a weak point. Just a crappy design that robs horsepower.

I've managed to snap one on my 97 RS which was mostly stock asside from a CAI.

No, it's not. There is subtle differences, nothing crazy. Certainly nothing that allows any v8 to hold up to more power and "sustain" it any more than a v6 could at the same power levels.

If you can't use the V6 hardware on a V8...it is entirely different. Nothing from our V6 drivetrain asside from the Y87 Rearends will work on a V8.

100 hp is really nothing and certainly not pushing limits. It's people cutting corners that cause issues.

On a N/A car, you're not getting much more than 100 HP ...150 at the very most unless you use N20...but on demand power, it's not happening.

you're comparing iron and aluminum blocks here. You're also comparing motors that have a big difference in compression numbers...Im not sure what your getting at here.

Which is what I was saying, you assumed that "any motor tuned right would perform as well as a 3.8" and I beg to differ that our 3.8's can handle more boost in stock form than an average stock motor.

The LT1 / LS1 have too high of a CR to handle too much boost stock so they have to go forged internals almost instantly, no amount of tuning can compensate for that.

A forged LS1 will probably handle a good bit of power, aluminum or not but thats beside the point... I know of a good few twin turbo LS1's pushing between 800 and 1,200 HP and are still street able. Not bragging or anything, Im just stating that the material of the engine in this case probably wont make a tremendous difference at these HP levels...maybe at 1k and up it probably will but still.

[Docta]

Re: Serious 3800 builds

i wanna go fast:)

+1. Lol.