HPT and idle spark timing

[Hib Halverson]

I'm calibrating the PCM on an 02 with an engine modified with a cam, heads and headers.

No matter what I set in the main spark tables, between idle and about 1000 rpm, timing fluctuates between 5 and 10 degrees less than what's set in the main spark tables.

Anyone else here have this problem?

[bigbrian442]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

Does it show any knock retard or just doesn't add the commanded timing?

[ssms5411]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

I'm calibrating the PCM on an 02 with an engine modified with a cam, heads and headers.

No matter what I set in the main spark tables, between idle and about 1000 rpm, timing fluctuates beteen 5 and 10 degrees less than what's set in the main spark tables.

Anyone else here have this problem?

I just leave idle timing alone, mines about 15 degrees which is fine aslong as theres no KR.
The ECT and IAT's have there factors in idle timing also.

[Hib Halverson]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

Does it show any knock retard or just doesn't add the commanded timing?

No KR.
It does not set the spark commanded by the main spark tables...either of them.

Cold start, spark in OL is 5 deg or so about 10 less than in the main spark tables. Soon as it goes CL, timing jumps to the commanded figure. Once ECT gets up to 150 or so, spark drops to 3.5-5 deg. which is about 10 less than what's in the tables and that's where it stays. All this is at idle speeds right around target idle or below. Above about 850 or so the spark jumps to the values in the spark tables.

I added 10 deg. to the spark in the 600 vs 0.12 and 0.16 cells along with the 800 vs .08, .12 and .16 cells and the 1000 vs .08 cell and that "fixed" the problem.

The reason this is an issue is at 3.5-5 deg at idle the engine doesn't respond off-idle as well.

I've been emailing with HPT support about this and their last response was the next version of HPT may add whatever "table" it is that is causing this issue, but...we're still talking about it.

[Hib Halverson]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

I just leave idle timing alone, mines about 15 degrees which is fine aslong as theres no KR.
The ECT and IAT's have there factors in idle timing also.

I looked at the IAT spark correct and the ECT spark correct tables and at operating ECT at idle all the cells are zero. They're not having an affect on spark at idle. It's gotta be some other table.

[bigbrian442]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

The PCM may be using the timing to control the RPM at idle.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

No KR.
It does not set the spark commanded by the main spark tables...either of them.

Cold start, spark in OL is 5 deg or so about 10 less than in the main spark tables. Soon as it goes CL, timing jumps to the commanded figure. Once ECT gets up to 150 or so, spark drops to 3.5-5 deg. which is about 10 less than what's in the tables and that's where it stays. All this is at idle speeds right around target idle or below. Above about 850 or so the spark jumps to the values in the spark tables.

I added 10 deg. to the spark in the 600 vs 0.12 and 0.16 cells along with the 800 vs .08, .12 and .16 cells and the 1000 vs .08 cell and that "fixed" the problem.

The reason this is an issue is at 3.5-5 deg at idle the engine doesn't respond off-idle as well.

I've been emailing with HPT support about this and their last response was the next version of HPT may add whatever "table" it is that is causing this issue, but...we're still talking about it.

Email support and ask them to provide you with their BETA version...its only available through emailing them, has a bunch of extra features not available/released to the public...they give you a link to download it on your account; lasts one week before it disappears...I believe some of the new tables may help you out a bit, but don't hold me to it...

[Hib Halverson]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

Email support and ask them to provide you with their BETA version...its only available through emailing them, has a bunch of extra features not available/released to the public...they give you a link to download it on your account; lasts one week before it disappears...I believe some of the new tables may help you out a bit, but don't hold me to it...

Done that. I using 2.23(beta). It's different in some ways but there are no new tables which I can detect.

Their tech support seemed to imply in the last email I got that they understand the problem and may put additional tables in the "next" version.

I was going to try to talk to their tech support person by phone next week.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

hmm...the only other thing you may want to look into then is tiny tuner, it has several tables for spark regarding ECT and when you can enable/disable the ECT modifier etc etc etc...20 tables available just for spark timing alone.

Free to download and use to, you would just need to post up on clubgp and fine someone to change your current tune on hpt to a .bin file so you can access your already modified tune...then make any changes necessary with the new tables in Tiny tuner, and then re-write the file with hpt.

[Hib Halverson]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

'Preciate the suggestion, but I don't know if the Tiny Tuner solution will help.

This problem is occuring at ECTs where both ECT and IAT modifiers are already at zero.

You mentioned there are 20 tables for spark. Can you list them? If I knew the names of them, maybe that'd be a clue as to which table is problem?

[LETZRIDE]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

I can get em for you when I get home and am not on my cell phone and have access to everything

[LETZRIDE]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

so your 20 tables just under spark are called: (and there may be other tables elsewhere in the program that could help you out, I dunno, I don't have time to really go through at the moment or I would investigate further for you...I should be able to look into something more maybe next wednesday.

Base timing

* AFR spark modifier
*Air temp spark modifier
*closed loop idle spark correction
*Crank spark advance vs rpm vs coolant temp
*disable idle spark advance
*engine coolant temp spark modifier
*High octane/good fuel spark
*idle spark base advance
*idle spark disable coolant temp
*idle spark enable coolant temp
*launch spark advance correction vs load vs RPM
*launch spark correction multiplier vs coolant temp
*launch spark disable negative delta TPS
*launch spark disable Pos. Delta Mass Air
*Launch spark enable Pos. Delta mass air
*Launch spark enable positive delta TPS
*Low octane/bad fuel spark
*spark advance P/N correction vs coolant temp
* TCC spark advance correction
*warmup spark correction vs load vs engine runtime

Then you got about another 20 for KR, a bunch for decel modifiers, probably about another 10-15 for dwell modifiers, and several for misfires.

I wasn't lieing when I said you got 20 tables just for base spark lol

Tiny tuner is MUCH more in depth then hp tuners, and apparently there is an unrelased version of Tiny tuner that I don't have that is out there if you know the right people as well...with several more tables.

Hope this helps you out some...like I said, what you need may even be somewhere else in the program, I just dont have much time to look and I'm headed to Rhode Island/Boston tommorrow for the long weekend. It's free to download, you just need to get a BIN file of your tune or you need to manually write everything over to tiny tuner and then reopen with HPT to write it to the car.

It's a bit of work, but we gotta kinda cheat the system when you start getting into fine tuning custom builds...gotta learn to live with it I guess...

[Hib Halverson]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

so your 20 tables just under spark are called:
(snip)

Base timing

(snip)
*closed loop idle spark correction
(snip)
*disable idle spark advance
(snip)
*idle spark base advance
(snip)

Gotta be in one of those three.

Hope this helps you out some...like I said, what you need may even be somewhere else in the program, I just dont have much time to look and I'm headed to Rhode Island/Boston tommorrow for the long weekend. It's free to download, you just need to get a BIN file of your tune or you need to manually write everything over to tiny tuner and then reopen with HPT to write it to the car.

I'm going to leave the work-around I have in the cal and wait abit for HPT to release a version with has those tables before I investigate Tiny Tuner.

Thanks, "LETZRIDE"

[bigbrian442]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

Gotta be in one of those three.



I'm going to leave the work-around I have in the cal and wait abit for HPT to release a version with has those tables before I investigate Tiny Tuner.

Thanks, "LETZRIDE"

Your looking at years for that release. 2.24 is not out yet and has no date set for its release. Then they will start working on the next beta. The current beta, 2.23, has been in the works for about 3 years.

[Hib Halverson]

Re: HPT and idle spark timing

Your looking at years for that release. 2.24 is not out yet and has no date set for its release. Then they will start working on the next beta. The current beta, 2.23, has been in the works for about 3 years.

Thanks for that information.